Shane Murphy (00:01.934)

Welcome back everybody. Today we are joined by Josh Cappell, a restaurant consultant who is a Michelin awarded restaurateur. He teaches restaurant owners all the recipes for scaling profitability and stress-free operations, bulletproof marketing strategies, everything to help you scale your restaurant. And Josh, you're an absolute legend. I'm so excited to have you joining us today. Thanks for coming and sharing your background and expertise.

Josh Kopel (00:30.573)

It's my pleasure to be here. I'm excited to chat.

Shane Murphy (00:34.12)

Awesome. Well, maybe before we dive into the nitty gritty, can you tell us a little bit more about your background? What led to you getting into the industry and brought you to this point?

Josh Kopel (00:45.467)

So, I mean, the shortest version of the story is I grew up in the industry. Like the first time I walked into a bar, I was like, this is for me. I would like to spend a lot more time here. And I came up in nightlife. It's a crazy long story, but, you know, I worked in bars and managed bars in southern Louisiana. And that

oddly led to running nightclubs in Hollywood. And so I did that in the early 2000s. Ultimately ended up opening my own bar in Hollywood and then opened a bunch of other stuff. We opened a Michelin Award to find dining restaurant. We spun that onto a fast casual concept and I ended up doing incredibly well in one of the most competitive markets in the world in multiple tiers of dining, which sounds like this big

beautiful success story, but it was just built on a stack of failures. And you figure out things along the way. And I guess that the big takeaway, which I think informs this conversation, is if I did well and I did well despite all of these overwhelming struggles that we all deal with, it's not because I'm the best restaurateur in the world. It's because I was a world class restaurant marketer. And that's kind of the lens through which I see everything.

Shane Murphy (02:04.536)

You know, I think that's such an interesting take because people don't generally get into owning a restaurant to like be a restaurant marketer. You get in, you love the food, you love the environment, you wanna provide events or you grew up in the industry and this is, you just know the space, you know how it functions. And that's a really interesting take because everyone like takes hits on the chin along the way.

Josh Kopel (02:15.557)

Sure.

Shane Murphy (02:33.196)

Running a restaurant is not for the faint of heart. And that can really, you compare yourself sometimes to all of these other people who are being successful. And you wonder like, man, they're amazing restaurateurs. Why am I not having that type of experience? And to hear, hey, I wasn't the greatest restaurateur either, but what I was good at is I got really good at marketing our restaurant and...

I met, like there's always a fundamental, there are fundamentals that you have to have as part of the experience. Otherwise marketing just will accelerate death. But maybe walk me through kind of how you came to those realizations and conclusions that that was an important piece to the puzzle outside of like all of the operational challenges that you're managing.

Josh Kopel (03:25.935)

So let me start by saying, like, I'm not advocating for mediocrity or that you serve bad food, beverage and have bad service. I was Michelin awarded. So like we did world class work. But I, like everyone else, I looked at the competitive landscape and what I saw was is that restaurants that were not as good as mine were much busier than me. And like everyone does that and everyone like shakes their fist and it's so unfair.

but I'm solution oriented. And so I said, well, you know, what are they doing that I'm not doing? And if people aren't motivated by great food, great beverage and great service, because they're not, because I mean, in every market for everyone listening, they're great restaurants, great world class restaurants, they go out of business every single day. So if great isn't enough, then what is it? And I think it's about messaging. And so it's in

This is a contrarian position, but I think that people that are really passionate about food become foodies. And I think that people that are really passionate about people become chefs and restaurateurs. When doing our job at the highest level, we're professional servants. And so if job one is to offer world class service, then job number two is to let people know about it. And so.

What I figured out was is that I was able to evolve my passion for people and service and just expand the definition of that into letting people know in a way that was engaging for them. And so I was always a restaurant owner, but I adopted a marketer's perspective, which is you get really comfortable with failure and you just iterate. You just constantly try different things to see what works. And over the course of a 20 year career,

I've after trying a thousand different things, I found it like nine work. And so I built an entire practice based on that.

Shane Murphy (05:29.912)

that there are people in every step of that journey where like, man, I've tried 500 things, I've tried 100 things, and one of them worked. And I think that message of grit of keep trying the things, focus on the things that work, double down on those, and just know it's part of the process is so critical. So I love that example.

Josh Kopel (05:54.95)

Well, you know, in another big paradigm shift is that, you know, there are no new problems in the restaurant industry. So you look at the restaurant industry and it's been around for like 2000 years. Jesus probably ate at restaurants. And so like you would be hard pressed to look at a single unit or multi unit owner operator and say like you are encountering things today that someone else hasn't already encountered at some point over the last 2000 years.

And I think what we do is we spend all of our trial and error trying to figure out how to solve our problem instead of trying to figure out who has already solved the problem. You know, when I started picking up books and educating myself on best practices in other industries, it was transformative for my business. It created paradigm shifts that made me a category of one because it's not only obviously do I start with a really unique worldview.

But I was also doing business differently and as a result we were able to grow exponentially faster than our competitive set.

Shane Murphy (07:04.066)

know, we talk a lot, like, obviously, I run a software company, and we talk a lot about how real, how often innovation, it comes by finding the greatest, like, things that are happening in other industries and applications, and then finding a way to apply it to our market, to our industry, and to our products. And it's no different in the restaurant world. You've done really well there. You know, recently,

Josh Kopel (07:25.254)

Sure.

Shane Murphy (07:34.146)

I saw a LinkedIn post that you had made, I think just last week, where you discussed like engineering your menu for profitability. And this is such a great topic that I think is often overlooked. And it coincides directly with marketing because there are things that you can only do from a marketing perspective when you orchestrate your business to actually produce profit. And

in a low margin business, like everything that influences profitability super matters. Can you maybe take a minute or two and like explain what is menu engineering and how does one actually do it to maximize profitability?

Josh Kopel (08:18.726)

Sure, so when I talk about menu engineering, what I am doing is I'm trying to sit in the seat of the patron and then figure out what the most linear sales process is to get them to do exactly what I want. think that most of our menus function as compasses and they should be roadmaps. So a compass sends you in a generalized direction.

Whereas I think a roadmap is a step by step process to ultimately achieve the desired result. This came out of my practice as a restaurateur. I would look around my fine dining restaurant and people would do it wrong. I would look at the dishes on the table. I would look at the selections that they made in the just they weren't engaging with the restaurant in the way that it was intended. And so I worked with my sales team and it didn't help. Right. And so then I figured out that the issue is the tool.

that like the tool itself should do the job. And then the salesperson is able to leverage that tool to help people figure out not what the best experience is, but just the items within that experience that would resonate most with the guest sitting across from them. So, you know, my approach is ultimately this. I reverse engineer from target per customer average spend. How much money do you want people to spend? And then the next question is, is it realistic? And then I say,

Well, you know what needs to be true in order for that to happen. I have this concept called the perfect check, which is a step by step sales process to hit your per customer, your target per customer average spend. But for all of you to oversimplify it already existing a restaurant. Look at the two tops with the highest per customer average spend. What are they buying? It's a really good question. Right. And then if you look at enough of those checks, you're going to see a through line.

So now you know what they're buying and then how do you sell it? Well, the next thing you do is you look at who is consistently selling that. I think that we do a bad job as an industry of training our salespeople and how to sell so that it feels like sharing, so that it feels like service. And so what we do is we look at the people that are selling exactly what needs to be sold in order to hit our per customer average spin and we shadow them and we figure out what language they're using.

Josh Kopel (10:43.514)

Because for most of us, didn't train them. It is just inborn into these people. Once you figure out what they sell, it's scripting, right? It's milestones, touch points to get people to do what is in their own best interest.

Shane Murphy (10:58.55)

You you use some very purpose-driven words there. Like, when you are saying, my salespeople, break that down. Because think the most, generally, the restaurateurs aren't, they might look around and say like, wait, I don't have salespeople at my restaurant.

Josh Kopel (11:06.16)

Words matter.

Shane Murphy (11:25.112)

Break that down on how you're defining it and why that's so critical.

Josh Kopel (11:30.183)

Sales is service. Sales is service. And I would explain it like this. One of the things that I figured when I moved from nightlife into fine dining is that people want to be told what to do. Literally everyone that is listening to this now, looking at your restaurant, 80 % of the people that's in your restaurant at minimum every single night are first time customers. They have no idea how to engage with your restaurant.

They don't know what's best. They don't know what they're going to like most. They haven't eaten there before. And so I believe that the sales process explains to them exactly how to engage with this restaurant. The things that they shouldn't miss on the menu because it would diminish the experience. And our job is to articulate exactly what that looks like. And so the way we do it is we sell by leading with curiosity. Right. How hungry are you guys?

Have you ever been in before? You know, what do you normally eat when you go out? What are your favorite foods? What do you cook at home? And then I am then and we did that in fine dining, right? In Michelin awarded fine dining just to show that there are no rules involved because I think that sales is advocating because people don't know and they need to be told what to do. And you see your guests doing it all the time. We just do a poor job with it. What's good here? What do you like on the menu? What's your favorite thing?

They're struggling. And so rather than waiting for them to ask, because most people won't, they'll just decide poorly. Why wouldn't you just build that into the scripting in a way that creates enrollment? Well, if you've never been here before, let me tell you why this restaurant exists. And then let me tell you what we are known for. And then you walk people through the menu section by section. You should get this, you should get that. And then in doing so, you're able to hit your target per customer average spend.

in a way that meets and exceeds the expectation of the customer. What we have seen is that in teams that sell gratuities are higher. They are statistically higher because people feel like that is a higher standard of care.

Shane Murphy (13:45.42)

I love that. And this isn't just a fine dining experience. Fine dining, it often is easy to feel like, my waiter has these opportunities to sell in ways that maybe a fast casual concept doesn't. And I think that's not true. There are so many people who, in a fast casual, they get to the front of line, they're standing there, there's this pause, they're looking at the menu board.

And they're doing these things. They're asking these questions, but they're in this like state of like, oh crap, there's a line behind me. What do I do? I've never been here before. I don't know what's good. And some people, very few, will ask, hey, what's your favorite thing on the menu? And when they do, have we prepared the staff to point them in the directions that are

optimal for the guest experience and optimal for profitability and combining the things that are going to get you to that, you know, that average spend check that you're looking for. It takes a little bit of preparation, a little bit of like thought, and then train your staff.

Josh Kopel (15:03.741)

I can give you two tactical examples outside of fine dining. in my bar in Hollywood, people would walk in all the time and they would say, can I get a Jack and Coke? To which my team would say, sure, yes, you can. But you you put on pants, you got in your car, you paid $20 to park and you came here. Of all places, you came here. So here's what I would like to do.

Shane Murphy (15:06.158)

That'd be great.

Josh Kopel (15:29.501)

What I'd like to do is I'd like to show you the cocktail list. I'd like to pick out something that matches the same notes and profiles of a Jack and Coke that I think you would enjoy. Let me make it for you. And if you love it, you pay for it. And if you don't, you don't pay for it and I'll make you the Jack and Coke. Because when we compete, we can only compete on the things that only we do. And look, that guy could go get a Jack and Coke anywhere. That is not a competitive advantage for me. Right? Because then you're just competing on speed and price.

But my cocktail list is uniquely me and I'm trying to give him or her a better experience. And what we found was if we guessed right based on their notes and having the right cocktail list that paired with average consumer use in the area, it worked. Gratuities were higher and they came to us more often because we exposed them to something that they liked. The second is I work with a juice company with four locations in Las Vegas.

And so they do. It's a juice place, right? They do bottle juice. They do smoothies. They do they do all kinds of stuff. Custom coffees. And so we came up with upsells for them. And I think that in order to do it, all you have to do is give people a little bit more of what they already want. So when people order a juice, we offer them a wellness shot. If they order a wellness shot, we offer them a flight of wellness shots. If they order a smoothie, we ask, they want to put an extra shot of protein in there?

And then with the coffees, we offer an extra shot of espresso. Their conversion rate on upsells is like 82 or 83 percent. And the gratuities are higher as a result because we're just giving people more of what they already want. If you're getting a protein smoothie, you want more protein, right? If you if you're getting a juice, you want more wellness. And so all of it is structured around serving.

so that it doesn't feel salesy. Does that make sense?

Shane Murphy (17:28.558)

Absolutely. You know, this reminds me of an experience that I had a decade ago. So I grew up in Michigan, and then I moved out to Utah halfway through college. And I came to Utah and I was in Provo, Utah. And I hadn't been to any restaurants here. So it was my first time going to this place called Guru's. And I remember I went in.

I was with like a couple other people. I ordered like a turkey avocado sandwich with fries and a drink. And plate, I just went for the line. I placed my order and the person rung it up and they said, Hey, do you want our normal fry? Are you, are you sure you, I think the phrase was, are you sure you want our normal fries or do you want our sweet potato fries?

because that's what we're known for. And I was like, well, I have to try the sweet potato fries. And yeah, like it wasn't a crazy difference. I think the difference in cost was like, mean, 10 years ago, it was like a buck 50. Today, it's probably 350 in a difference. But it was like just a no brainer of, yeah, you're known for that. I should do that. And if the person didn't say anything,

I guarantee they were trained to say if someone orders fries, offer the sweet potato fries. And they say, because that's what we're known for. And every time after that, I always got the sweet potato fries. I never tried their normal fries. And so every time I came back, it was at least $1.50 more than what I would have spent otherwise. And there's that compounding effect where if you do it once, you provide the good service, the good food quality, the good operational environment.

If what you do one time influences future purchasing behavior, and we forget about that, it's a recurring compounding benefit.

Josh Kopel (19:34.502)

Absolutely. Look, sales is about consistency of execution. There's this crude story that I heard many, many years ago that says sales is like standing on a street corner asking everyone that walks by to kiss you on the mouth. You're going to get slapped in the face a lot, but every now and then you're going to get a smooch. You know, again, back to what I was saying before, think sales is about leading with curiosity. Like when I ask, like, do you want a wellness shop with adjuice?

I'm genuinely asking like you wanted this you might want this too and how would you know if I didn't offer it because you don't own this business. You've never engaged with us before. And so you know I think that we do these things and these things are cues that we care that we're curious and I get that sales feels dirty but as long as we believe that we're offering things of inherent value I think it's a no brainer and if the menu supports this which lightens the lift for the sales team.

we end up in a much better spot.

Shane Murphy (20:33.132)

And that's the thing too, like when you think through engineering your menu, there are certain items that are just, you know, they're consumers like them and they're low food cost. And when you pair some of those things together and you look at, okay, how do I reverse engineer the perfect check? I think that's, that is a great process that every restaurant owner should do is how do I reverse engineer the perfect check?

And what does that look like from a profitability standpoint? How do I pair things together that maximize profitability? And that might just be upselling the fountain drink. It might be the garlic knots that are 62 cents and primarily margin. And you're pairing that with maybe the low cost food items when somebody's ordering something that's low cost or higher cost.

When you work with your clients and they're reverse engineering the perfect check, how are they thinking about this?

Josh Kopel (21:39.102)

So again, it's all data driven. So you're looking at your highest check averages, you're seeing what they're buying. And again, they're common threads and then they know exactly how to sell it because they already have people in their organization that are selling this with consistency. So once they have the scripting and then once they know exactly what needs to be sold, they don't train their teams. They have their salespeople, right? They have the people that are already doing this, sell it. Now, the way that we get it done and we get it done quickly and consistently.

is by aligning objectives. So nobody wants to sell for you. Right? Like that is that is not the nature of things. But the people that work for us are entrepreneurial in nature. Right? Nobody gets into the restaurant industry on a line level because they want to work hard for a fair wage. They're gambling. I'll make more than if I have a regular job because of the tips. And so that's what they're doing. So we just align and we say, listen, if you're able to sell more, you take a percentage of that.

through gratuity statistically. So what we do is we run the data so that we can sell it because the first sale is to the team, right? It's not to the guest. And so what we do is we say, this is Sally. Sally works alongside you every single day. Sally's check average is X number higher than yours and her gratuities are X number higher than yours. Whether they're getting tips individually or they're in a pool, you're able to extrapolate the lift over the course of 30 days.

if they just do what Sally does and it doesn't take any more effort. It's just saying different things in a different order. And it's not I don't want you to think, Shane, that it's like a whole pitch. You've heard of the 80-20 principle. We use this 20-80 principle, which is that the truth is, is that 20 percent of your guests are ordering one or two more things that 80 percent of your guests would enjoy.

And so that being the case, it's not about sell more. Generally, it's about sell this. This is the thing you should sell people. And in doing so and giving them language not to experiment, not to iterate, but it is proven to work in this restaurant through these people that you work alongside. It's a really light lift.

Shane Murphy (23:58.702)

I love that the phrase of it's not sell more, it's sell this. Sell the thing that people will want. And that simplifies it for the staff. They're not having to do this complex chart of if they have this, then pair it with this. It's this, this, this. It's just here's one or two things that most people want that you can apply in any situation. If it's coffee, do you want an extra shot of espresso?

If it's the smoothie, do you want a shot of protein? And that's it. It's simple and always ask the question. So this is awesome. You know, before we wrap up, do you have any other just parting advice for restaurant owners that are looking to improve their ability to market their restaurant or

Josh Kopel (24:34.344)

That's it.

Shane Murphy (24:57.454)

to influence the profitability of their store.

Josh Kopel (25:01.65)

I think frame matters. I've been I did this for a really long time myself. I've worked with hundreds of restaurateurs and then through my own show, I've interviewed over 500 of the most successful people in and around this industry. It is not an easy industry, but it is very simple. If you want to make more money, there are only a handful of ways to do it. So you can scale your per customer average spend.

using a bunch of the techniques that we talked about today that will immediately make you more money. You can scale customer frequency because if you just do the simple back of the napkin math rather than going after new customers, which I believe is like the crack cocaine of our industry. If everyone that comes to your restaurant once a month comes in twice a month, you're rich. You don't have any problems in this world. And when you think about like your favorite restaurant in the world,

Like what would they have to give you to convince you to come back one more time? And I think the answer is not a discount, not a freebie, just an invitation. I think that people have a memory problem, not a loyalty problem. I think people walk out of our doors and they immediately forget that we exist. And our job is just to remind them in a really personable way. Diversifying revenue streams. What I figured out was is that my fast casual concept was open seven days a week.

to advertise my catering business. And this beautiful fine dining restaurant that I had that was open six days a week existed almost exclusively to sell my private events business. And in doing so, we made massive amounts of money in large chunks at high margin. And then again, I think understanding that those are the verticals you don't even need to focus on. New customer acquisition.

And so which is expensive and hard and it's so much easier to say come back than it is to say give me a shot. And so that to me is the lowest hanging fruit in the industry. And if people want to learn how to do it they can go to my website and learn how to do it literally for free.

Shane Murphy (27:11.104)

that and so what is your website how can people find you and follow you and really get into your content

Josh Kopel (27:17.886)

In an industry full of people that talk about it but aren't about it, what I've decided to do is just give it all away and I've been able to build this big beautiful business because of it. So if they go to joshcople.com, they'll be able to sign up for my restaurant marketing masterclass. It's live, it's free, it's five days and in 40 minutes a day, I deeply unpack all of the tactics, tools and strategies that my clients pay for. And in doing so,

I'm able to lift the industry. bring on a few new clients every month as a result. And I train hundreds of people for free that desperately need this advice.

Shane Murphy (27:59.502)

amazing. Josh, thank you so much for sharing your insights, your expertise. There are 50 or more nuggets of gold that if people just apply one of them, they're going to see more sales, they're going to see their staff happier, they're going to see their guests spending more, and it's all going to come together. So thank you for sharing all these things. so joshcopel.com. I encourage everybody to go check out his content and apply the principles that we've talked about today.

Thanks for coming on today, Josh.

Josh Kopel (28:31.059)

My pleasure.